More than often we have been aiming our arrows towards the INF-FNI (International Naturist Federation), we complained about their inability to modernise and worried about whether one day it will all fall apart. Most of all we wondered what they are actually doing for the naturists or naturism in general. Over the years we’ve sent them several e-mails to which we never received a response and so we just criticised them a little more. As a consequence, we started to lose trust in the individual naturist federations as well. If the mother of them all (who clearly must have the most knowledge and fundings) is not doing a good job, what should we expect then from the local federations who have to do with much less?
Those questions would probably have remained unanswered if we hadn’t found out that our itinerary had a pretty close match with the dates and the location of the 36th INF-FNI World congress. This was a unique chance to experience in person what this international naturist federation was all about. We immediately sent an e-mail to the INF to ask about the requirements to join and then… Again no response. Luckily Koen (the president of the Belgian federation) knew better than us which strings to pull and little later our attendance was confirmed.
On a sunny Thursday in October we walked through the doors of a hotel at the coast of Lisbon, ready to experience the most important conference in the world when it comes to naturism.
On a sunny Thursday in October we walked through the doors of a hotel at the coast of Lisbon, ready to experience the most important conference in the world when it comes to naturism.
It’s not completely what you would imagine
After being a naturist for about ten years, we think we can say that we’ve learned a thing or two about the lifestyle. Although different naturist places around the world are differently managed, some things will always be the same. The nudity obviously, but also the open minded atmosphere where people have respect for each other, listen to each other and address things in a positive way rather than breaking them down. Not so long after our arrival we would learn that this is not the kind of atmosphere we expected at the INF conference. But then again, this was not a naturist place either. One strange thing was that the conference wasn’t held at a naturist resort but in a textile hotel. We haven’t been able to figure out the exact reason for that, maybe the Portuguese naturist resorts are not able to accommodate over a hundred people or they can’t provide the necessary equipment for a conference? Maybe the fragile naked behinds of the board members prefer a room over a camper? We’ll leave that in the middle.
Although approval had been given by the hotel to be naked in the meeting room, when the conference was about to start on the first day there was only one naked person: Gregers from the Thai federation. His initiative did encourage others and soon also Hector (Mexico) dropped his clothes and so did we, Claudia (Mexico), Koen (Belgium), Nick (UK), Letitia (Ireland), Laurent (France), Maja (Slovenia), Tokhwa (Malaysia) and some others. During the whole weekend, about 25% of the participants would attend the meetings naked. Many only took off their clothes for the group picture on the 3rd day and quickly put them on again afterwards. Some didn’t even take the effort to join the group picture.
Naturism encourages openminded thinking and this became pretty obvious during the whole congress. Well, let’s rephrase that, it started to appear to us that naturists who keep wearing their clothes in a place where social nudity is allowed seem to become pretty narrow minded. From the first minute we felt a negative atmosphere and this never really went away during the whole conference. Greg (Australia) tried twice to point out to the other participants what the philosophy of naturism was all about and that we should strive for collaboration instead of shooting the proposals of the others down. Apparently he wasn’t convincing enough.
We believe that the main cause of this negative atmosphere (except for rivalries that happened in the past) was that there seemed to be two camps, which we started calling the “conservative” and the “progressive”.
The conservative strive to go back to the roots of naturism where the lifestyle is practiced in the form of a club based on volunteers and with a clear membership system (preferably on paper). The progressive on the other hand strive for modernised facilities and more options for naturists, agree that naturism can be interpreted in different ways and search for solutions to attract a broader audience. Guess which side we were on…
We believe that the main cause of this negative atmosphere (except for rivalries that happened in the past) was that there seemed to be two camps, which we started calling the “conservative” and the “progressive”.
The conservative strive to go back to the roots of naturism where the lifestyle is practiced in the form of a club based on volunteers and with a clear membership system (preferably on paper). The progressive on the other hand strive for modernised facilities and more options for naturists, agree that naturism can be interpreted in different ways and search for solutions to attract a broader audience. Guess which side we were on…
Was it all that bad?
It’s not hard to imagine that two completely different visions, which couldn’t be further from each other, are not the ground one can build on. Ideas were thrown in the group and all the others searched for possible reasons why they were not going to work. Honestly, the little confidence we still had in the INF as it is run today is now completely gone.
The positive side of this all is that we regained our confidence in the individual federations. Revolutionary ideas which can help naturism grow where thrown on the table and although they were all immediately criticised by the other side, they were proof that the federations are still trying to move forward.
The positive side of this all is that we regained our confidence in the individual federations. Revolutionary ideas which can help naturism grow where thrown on the table and although they were all immediately criticised by the other side, they were proof that the federations are still trying to move forward.
Also within the board of the INF, two positions have been taken by members with progressive ideas and both got reelected. Meaning that the majority of the federations want to move forward. One of them was Huub, Assessor for the European countries, who presented his future strategy which sounded like it had been stolen from our website. He will strive for further expansion of naturist options and for a reform of the INF towards a service organisation which has to become a source of knowhow and inspiration. It was the most beautiful thing we heard during the whole congress. Huub has a very long way to go and many obstacles to conquer, but he’s very determined.
For us and many delegates of the federations, the real congress happend outside of the meeting hours, during dinner or with a beer at the bar where likeminded people could share ideas without having to fear the negative comments. We saw how different federations were learning from each other and started building the foundations of a better framework for naturism. In that point of view, the congress was certainly a success.
And also for ourselves, our goals were to see how the INF works and to meet new people who are passionate by naturism. We certainly succeeded in both.
It still bothers us that good ideas were shot down so easily while the last decade or more has already proven that conservative thinking is not saving naturism. We believe that it’s time for a change. Well, actually it was already time for a change 10 years ago but it’s still not too late. We have seen that the federations have the potential to grow and we hope that during the next congress progressive candidates for the board functions will step forward and change the tide. Let’s (finally) bring naturism into the 21st century!
And also for ourselves, our goals were to see how the INF works and to meet new people who are passionate by naturism. We certainly succeeded in both.
It still bothers us that good ideas were shot down so easily while the last decade or more has already proven that conservative thinking is not saving naturism. We believe that it’s time for a change. Well, actually it was already time for a change 10 years ago but it’s still not too late. We have seen that the federations have the potential to grow and we hope that during the next congress progressive candidates for the board functions will step forward and change the tide. Let’s (finally) bring naturism into the 21st century!
SIDE NOTE: The next congress will be held in 2020 in Slovenia, a country that has the word “love” in its name. Could that be an indication?
SIDE NOTE 2: Of course all that has been said here is our own interpretation of the facts. We’re pretty sure that some others saw things in a completely different way.
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It sounds like the INF has succumbed to Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:
Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people”:
First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.
Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.
The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html
Very interesting thought!
AS a member of one of the federation (italian) who attended the congress, I could say you perfectly centered the atmosphere, the mood and the fundamental problems that naturism is facing. The conservative forces, both in INF and the national federations, are strong and often they stop the desire and the efforts toward the change. As a new member of this “circle” (that was my first WC) we are trying to move the national and international naturism politics towards a more free naturism, based on the people and with the important contributions of clubs, but we are having, as you can imagine, a certain opposition.
Society goes on and we must follow or we will wiped out. No other alternatives.
Thank you for attending the NWC2018 with us. It was a pleasure to meet you, as was a pleasure to read this very interesting report.
See you everywhere!!!
As leader of Christian Naturists of America, we have already established affiliation with the American Association for nude Recreation as well as the naturist Society. There’s a growing number of members within CNA that are interested in affiliation with INF. What are the requirements for CNA to join INF?
We’re not 100% sure, but as far as we know only national naturist federations can join the INF. Since the USA has no national federation that is already affiliated with INF, maybe the CNA could act as one. But we doubt it. The best thing you can do is to contact the INF directly about this.
Very soft article.
INF elect again the same Vice President after what happened in New Zealand Congress.
“They kept talking a bit more about situation and there were two statements made by the
current vice president, Jean Peters, which were very worrisome.
The first one was that he would do everything in his power to undermine the elected
president Armand Jamier and to make his life as president very hard.
The second statement was that he would find a way to make this election illegal or overturn it in some way.”
Full document available here
http://naturistactiongroup.org/wp-content/uploads/To-the-legal-committee-of-the-I.N.F.-F.N.I.-EN.pdf
What can we expect from INF?
What can we expect from an organization with this kind of Executive Council?
https://thailandnaturist.com/newsroom/inf-new-president-new-focus/
https://thailandnaturist.com/newsroom/inf-may-call-new-meeting-to-elect-the-president/
http://naturistactiongroup.org/ and search for INF
There is not worldwide anyone else available for this position ? Why not?
Wow , not gonna lie..
I find this very interesting, and more even odd.
I mean, i was reading always and everywhere about how tolerant and open minded natrists are, and now i read this ,wow .. crazy.
I know u N&L are against,conservative,old school,pure,original,naturism ,but on the other hand, as for naturism, it may be in different ways, but it totaly makes sence that a federation ,has to have the basic goal in common.
What u present is a total different version of naturism ,so of course they dont agree with it.
Altho i dunno what @Andrea Mirabilio ,ment with a more free naturism ,and with Society goes on and we must follow or we will wiped out.
Anyhow ,its really odd to see that there is such a big devide ,i never tought id read about that.
Yeah, that’s what we do… tell people things about naturism they didn’t know yet 🙂
Until several decades ago, naturism in the terms of joining a naturist club and volunteering in the organisation was the only kind of naturism there was. Today there are many different kinds, which some like to call nudism or nude recreation or something else and naturism as it was known before became just a part of the whole scope.
Federations and the INF have the option to either embrace those new kinds of naturism and grow or stick to the “authentic naturism” and miss out on many others. That’s roughly why there’s a divide at the moment
Absolutely right. Your point of view deserves a deep reflection. Smart people haven’t to only repeat the “mantra”, but closely observe the world to follow a society that changes every day.
But we have to view the things from different points of view. The INF borned several decades ago to sustain and advertise clubs and campsite. It gets its resources from them and from the individual stamps.
As a member of INF I understand a certain reluctance to accept a way for naturisme that is not able to produce a revenue. This is humanly understandable. But, as intelligent people, I think, we all should not to ignore reality and to find the more suitable way to develop and transform INF in a changing world. History always teaches us this lesson. Who doesn’t adapt itself by evolving, dies out, and that wouldn’t be the better solution for all of us.
Thank you!
We believe that promoting a broader view of naturism could certainly result in more revenue for the INF as well. Via advertising for example. For us, INF affiliation should become something like a quality label, something to be proud of. This is currently still somewhat the case for clubs (although many of them, especially in the more touristic areas, are moving towards a more commercial strategy in which the INF currently doesn’t fit), but this could also work for naturist hotels, B&Bs, Yoga schools,…
@Andrea Mirabilio
Well every1 will die out someday , but just for the record, just cause something is “IN” .. dont mean every1 has to follow it like a sheap.
I mean in a way its like saying .. hey , in ur prime u were lstening Guns N Roses or Bon Jovi .. but they are old and “dead” now .. u should listen to more rave or dance or xxxtention-whatever ,cardi b ..cause its the 21th cent ..well no..
I’d like to weigh in on the tradition/modernity issues facing naturism from what is likely a somewhat unique position. I am a 57m former evangelical Christian who lost his faith (no regrets) over the past five years and only this year enthusiastically embraced naturism.
I have visited three resorts this year and the conversations about tradition and modernity I had with the regulars were strikingly similar to the conversations taking place in churches across America, and likely the world. Stunningly similar.
The average small church in America (+/- 100 members) is struggling with cultural relevance. The music is changing, and this is a huge issue. The old guard wants tradition and the young people flock to churches with rock bands. The old folks want a liturgical service and the young folks prefer a young dude with no necktie. The old folks want the preacher to do an exposition on Leviticus chapter 20, and the young folks want a topical, culturally relevant lecture with multimedia and a few good jokes sprinkled in. The old folks want the church to take hard-line stances on abortion and gay marriage, the young folks aren’t so sure. The old folks want to put a check in the offering plate and the young folks don’t even have a checkbook.
So the more successful churches in America (medium or mega) have gone whole hog with modernity. There’s a rock band, a cool dude with topical sermons, avoiding controversy in the hip message. They Encourage recurring payments on a well-designed website. And on it goes.
The old timers at a nude resort are not so sure about singles, youths, people with funky body art and piercings. The old folks want to go to bed early and the young folks want to party late. The old folks want pétanque, the young want 5k runs and volleyball tournaments. The old folks are not cool with gays, and sure as hell not cool with someone halfway through gender reassignment surgery. And on it goes.
The story is the same despite the drastic difference in the topic at hand. It’s the age old struggle of progress and modernity encroaching on tradition. The success, growth and money are flocking to modernity. Just ask any successful mega-church, Bare Oaks Naturist Center or Cypress Cove Resort.
Modernity will eventually win out. Unfortunately, more than a few clubs will fail to adapt and will surely die a slow death, much like many smaller churches are doing.
How do we solve this? I suspect the issue is solving itself, albeit painfully. People like Nick & Lins will impact their generation and those behind them. May their tribe increase!
Thanks for this very interesting view on the subject Steve!
Thank you for this inside look at the INF congress. I share many of your feelings and question what value the INF adds to global naturism. It sounds like a much smaller light wright INF setup that just arranges the meeting of the national federations would be more useful at this point.
In Denmark we have our own problems with the INF. “Danske Naturister”, which is the most progressive, youngest, and biggest organisation, had for a long time difficulties in joining the INF mainly because of the hinderings from the older, smaller and more “traditional” organisation “Dansk Naturist Union”, which seems to think that they should be the only organisation worthy of carrying the naturist ideals in Denmark.
Read more about that here (Use Google Translate): https://naturistensite.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/danske-naturister-lamnar-internationella-naturistfederationen/
Dear friends,
I was just reading: WE and THEY – and some interpretation of matter on a highly self-confident level (…an euphemism).
Written statements sound so incredibly different to what I could feel in face-to-face communication, therefore let me add an external point of view, as I am not member of your federation:
“WE” – meaning the good ones, the modernizers, girls and boys of the Sun… versus
“THEY” – being used for bureaucracy, by characterizing these old-fashioned, structure-bound skeletons within the INF-FNI, or even the INF-FNI itself, as a dying entity.
Well done, if you want to draw a cartoon. Did you?
Distinguishing between WE (positive, creative, the good ones) and THEY (“aiming arrows” on the enemies, the bad ones) would do for a cpl. of years, in order to form identity, which would presumably not have existed, so far.
Birds of a feather flock together. That’s quite okay. The recent development, however, leads to a “self-definition against another group”. The outcome, among scientists, is known as critical – as soon as the counterpart is seen as destroyable rather than: co-operative, useful, or even entitled to exist in a group’s (resp. society’s) own peculiarity.
Destroying such a counterpart means: signing one’s own destruction.
See: Schindler, Raoul:
Das lebendige Gefuege der Gruppe (The Living Structure of the Group. Selected Works.) – Giessen: Psychosozial ed., 2016 (in German).
Ellmauthaler, Volkmar:
1. Nackt. das Buch.
2. Versuch ueber das Unsaegliche.
(in German, some parts in English: Vienna, editionL 2012-2015.)
Co-operation, in the narrow times of Trump, has become old-fashioned and seemingly overruled, with the exception of “folks of his own” (rather unsteady a collective!). Yelling and cursing on “others” (in the sense of “underdogs”) has thereby become deviant from the corresponding right and duty of puberty: It has been introduced as a destructive general behaviour in politics and – as a role model – has become part of a general conduct, which I deeply regret to say.
You may agree if I contradict this.
I do offer – and I am still hoping to face – mutual openheartedness, understanding and respect. Trump’s (and others’, e.g. Duterte’s) fatal role models, even if loud and harsh, are dead matter: Anyone who can use his/her/int’s brain will notice that one needn’t accept the conduct of a narcistic personality, or even a borderline patient, as a pattern that might lead to a better world – even if “leaders” seem to be adored again, after some 80 years of peace.
Naturism, as my wife and I are living it, contains the referral on basics: nature, respect, mutual understanding and benevolence. Politics is far from that. Still we accept structures, which can only be changed through fact-based discussion. It needs a trifle intelligence and modesty: It needs to set aside one’s own striving after “power” in favour of a positive development in favour of the well-being of Naturists all over the world, some of them less lucky than us.
Basis must be the truth.
You will receive some new and constructive inputs soon, as “after” (the 2018 elections) is “before” 2020. We shall face major changes, which can not be solved by measures of puberty.
I am confident, you folks will desist from a collective “political” protest and rather proceed in a constructive manner for the protection of Naturism and the common joy of being Naturists.
Wishing you a gorgeous season!
Volkmar
Chairman, The Ethics Council
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this Volkmar. How much we would have loved to write a completely objective opinion about what we saw at the INF conference, we could not. Because we felt much more strongly connected to the “modernisers”, the “WE”. Hence side note 2 at the bottom of the article where we state that the whole article was purely our own interpretation.
We strongly agree that anything other than co-operation will be destructive and honestly, we saw very little co-operation between both sides during the congress. This was not uniquely caused by the WE or the THEM but by both parties. In any case, this is not the way forward. It seems like the rivalry between both sides keeps growing and this is leading nowhere.
Just like you state, also to us naturism has very little to do with politics and Greg from Australia has also mentioned this twice during the congress. Yet to us the congress often seemed like a huge political game.
There are two completely different visions for the future of naturism. Those who want to stick with the original definition from decades ago and those who want to embrace new tendencies within naturism, which some may call nudism or nude recreation.
Rather than discussing right from wrong, we hope that the focus in 2020 will rather be put on a constructive dialog.
Maybe the solution is to make something .. like.. a new name?
As i mentioned b4, new age naturism or progressive naturism., or simply nudism?
Then u can have ur standard old school vanila naturist organization, and lets call it nudism organization, where all are welcome, even those that are not really there for just being nude ghm ghm lol ..tbh i think thats the best solution.
Or maybe perhaps one day, like in 20-40 years time , many of the older old schooler ppl will ..well die of old age, and there will be no more “conservative” nudies?
Altho still, the thing that confuses me the most is ..
When u say naturism, ppl say its for everyone, anyone can be one.
So if its so, and if naturism would be more then it is considered now/today (those old schoolers) , then that saying that its for everyone, wouldnt really fit ,because imagine if its like that today, that would mean that if you would go to any resort, camp, similar, you would never know who will be there and what will be going on there, hence, one would think if they would/should go with their kids or not ,cause there might be some “special events” happening ,and because its all naturism, why would they need to point that out as “something” ,if all of that will fit under the same umbrella aka naturism?
On the other hand, if one does point out those special events, and if not everyone is allowed to attend them , then can you still call it naturism? (cause as we said, naturism is for everyone, regardless of anything).?
I’m not sure I understand your point about these special events?
Also personally I prefer the term naturist to nudism. I do like a translation of the German FKK to English which would be free body culture.
If we all want to get along, we have to stick to certain rules or a certain etiquette. In our case, naturism or nudism or whatever you like to call it can be referred to the initial values, being that it’s about non-sexual nudity and with respect for oneself, for others and for nature.
If you like to be naked for the sexual aspect, you don’t belong in our “movement”. If you like to be among naked people to make fun of them, you don’t belong in it either. It’s simple as that.
Of course several “movements” can mix, no problem with that, but again the etiquette will tell you which place you can go to for what.
Um @Andrewk special events aka swinger parties or just simply places where its not a nono to get sexual.
NickLins, not long ago u had a blog about can nudism be sensual when u were at that mexican place i think? And u said yes it can be, so i dont understand now how come now again ,if one is nude for sexual reasons is not welcomed?
But as i said, if you devide the two things as sexual nudism or non sexual nudism, then is it nudism/naturism in general or is it not?
I mean as far as i understand ur part of that more open minded progressive naturism/nudism/whatever lol movement, but now again u say that in ur case nudismnaturism is its initial values, wich is the total oposite of the more progressive way of thinking u said that u have.
So its kinda confusing now ,to me at least.
Because if u go to those definitions that every1 can be a nudie, but still some wont belong somewhere ,for this or that reason, means that not really every1 can be one.
I dont think that my way hes way or ur way of anything is the right way of thinking or looking at things .. if theres something, it is what it is, i cant be ur way or mine..
If ppl go to a sertan beach resort for “parties” , of course they can be or will be naked, i mean, with all they do there, being nude is the least problem lol, so if they are that open minded, being nude is prolly nothing to them, but just cause its so, that dont make them nudies, cause their primary reason for being there is not to tan or lay around naked or to go play football naked..so in that sence i cant agree that nudism can be sensual/sexual.
So thats why its confusing, cause i got the feeling that in one way when it does good, they we say ,yes it can be sensual, we should be more openminded ,and when it doesnt fit us, we say ,nudism has nothing to do with sex or sexual events.
But as for many things, i blame capitalism … if i own a nudist camp, and say its a pure clean nudie camp ,i have like 200 guests / day.. if i say damn.. i want 500ppl or 1000..? lets make it a sensual nudist camp, and baam .. ill have 1000ppl as guest jsut like that .. ,sooo .. the good old $$$ talks, and changes the rules/words/meanings to everything ,cause ppl will still call that nudism so that it would be more acceptable more tolerated , the question is ,are we/you ready to addmit that? and ya, prolly those 200 from before will never ever come again lol , cause they dont want their kids to watch ppl do stuff .. some maybe wouldnt even mind ,but they still wont come again cause of the tabboo subject.
So this is why i find it hard to put all of it under the same umbrella.
Of course not because i like or dislike it either way or options, but because therms keep floating,depends on what we need as a levrage when we are in an argument with someone, or with public or with nudie organizations.
Wait a minute… we’ve never written a post about whether nudism can be sensual. We did write a post about whether a nudist can be comfortable in a sensual place. Those are two completely different things.
For us, naturism or nudism or let’s just call it “the clothes free lifestyle” comes down to several values: non-sexual nudity and respect for oneself, others and nature. Does that mean that we can’t visit a sensual place? That would be the same as saying that we can’t visit a textile beach either. We just want to point out that a sensual place is not a place that fits within the clothes free lifestyle, but then again you can still chose whether you go there or not.
We’ve made the comparison before: It’s not because you’re a vegetarian that you can’t visit a restaurant where they serve meat. If you have a big fat steak over there, then you may want to question your vegetarianism…
But your confusion is very interesting and it shows how borders have become vague. Maybe it’s time someone published a new definition about naturism…
Ok maybe i misunderstood it then but ,tbh i do think its the exact same thing. Word games, but basicly its the same thing.
No it wouldnt be the same as saying that u cant visit a textile beach either cause there are C/O beaches already,so those two are already mixing each other, while the main subject isnt, or i think it isnt.
Hah lol as far as the food comparison, yea but ,why the heck would a vegie go to a restaurant with non vegie food? It makes no sence, its not that one cant, but it makes no sence.
And again ,it makes no sence to me why would one go to a sensual nudist resort or such if he/she, wont joing them or if they at least dont enjoy watching others? It makes no sence … its like going to a football game, and then u turn ur back and watch the fans instead of the game .. ya u can do it ,but whats the point of it?
I guess it is interesting because ,well at least me, i dont like ..
or should i say , i do like things when they are stated out clear without any chance of misunderstanding it, be it a definiton of something, laws (that i hate because they dont give u rights, they take it away to begin with) , private property/party rules (i dont like those either lol ) and such ..
But again, if one goes to a sensual place ,right from that page, it dont matter anymore if ur a nudist or a textile, ur not there to be a nudist or a textile, thats my point.
As u say social nudity? umm yess, we can call it that way , but if u connect it in any way with nudism or naturism, then ur connection seXNsual stuff with it as well ,and the def. of naturism as u pointed out, is the oposite of that.
Of course (and that iiiiiiiiissss my point all the way) unless u wanna allow it to be seXNsual ,as a way of that new age progresive naturism oposed to what the Federation is.
That was my point, because if u still want it to be pure vanila “family only” (i hate that therm too lol, im a hater) thing ,then u basicly agree with the Federation , and then i really dont understan whats all the fuzz about?
In the town where we used to live, there were about 5 restaurants but none of them was a vegetarian one. Probably all of them had vegetarian options though, albeit often just a salad. That’s a reason why a vegetarian might go to a non-vegetarian restaurant. Another reason could be because they’re going with non-veggie friends or family, and there are probably other reasons as well.
It’s similar with nudism. Maybe the only place in the neighbourhood where you can be socially naked is a sensual place? Or to relate back to our experience, we’ve been to all places except one in the Mexican Riviera that allow nudity and Desire was by far the best when it came to food and service. If you really want top notch quality, that’s where you need to be. When we were there, we’ve met several other genuine nudists and we’ve gotten an insight in their statistics and about 30% of their visitors are genuine nudists.
If you want to relate it to football, can a Barcelona fan go to a Real Madrid game? If Barcelona is playing Madrid, you’ll probably hate them and hope they lose in the most humiliating way. But if Madrid is playing let’s say Chelsey, you might just go to the Madrid stadium and see a good game. Because in the end, you like football.
But the thing is ..
A vegie can go to a restaurant but not at all cause of the food .. besides ,i dont think u can compare those things cause there are no rules to what will/can one eat (unless ur doctor tells u) ,and no1 will say anything to anybody cause of that and everyone can go to a restaruant .. nor there is a need to have a separate restaurant for that tbh, its just food .. but as i said, with nudism its different, all cause of that nudism is for every1 and its non sexual. Im not saying that, nudists/naturists are..
If there wasnt for that part, or it would be, ..it isnt really for every1 and it can be sexual, then i wouldnt say anything. Thats the whole point,just to say things they way they are, not making them look nicer for the general public so that it would be more accepted.
If u cant take ur kid there cause its a sensual place, then its not for every1 ,and if u cant take them there, that proves it can be senXual.
As ur example, imagine like a nudie family, and as u said the only option they have is the resort close by but its a sensual one …
They have taught they kids the values that its for every1 every1 can be a nudie, and its nothing sexual and stuff .. but when they go to that close by sensual nudist resort cause thats their only option, they tell they kids, sorry .. but u cannot come with us there.They will ask why not? We wanna go! , what will they tell them?..
As for the football hah, well ya, no1 can ban u from watching anyones game ,and no1 ever said that u must only watch ur own teams games ,again the same point as with food .. nothing is excluded ,and everyone can attend any game ,just as every1 can eat anything at any restaurant, no restrictions.
As for that 30% u mentioned, and the great food and service, well, if i have that i mind, i think that being socialy nude then i the last reason those ppl go there , sounds more like they wanna be treated like gods while being nude.
I dont know..
We just want to add two more points and then we’re going to stop this discussion as it’s clearly not really leading anywhere. We just like to have the final word 🙂
1. There are no sensual nudist places. There are nudist places and sensual places which happen to have social nudity in common. We think that nudists can go to a sensual place as long as they accept the rules and etiquette and vice versa.
2. There are different kinds of nudists with different expectations and yes, some of them do like to be treated like gods. We don’t see much wrong with that. Although big luxury is doesn’t really match with the philosophy of most nudist clubs, several resorts are providing this option and they’re often successful. So clearly there is a market for it and if you search for definitions of nudism/naturism you won’t find any that specifically say that you are not allowed to spend 5 000 dollars a week to have a top notch vacation if that’s what you like.
As a side note, this INF congress was also at a quite luxurious place. We didn’t go camping in the woods either.
Well i like to have the last word too.
Ill start with 2.
U said clearly there is a market for it .. well that said it all.. whenever business mixes into something that natrually isnt about $, and well.. natrually naturism shouldnt be about $ , but ya when things like those two mix .. it all loses its sence.
As far as INF goes lol ,well , i didnt expect anything less.. all organizations do that ..thats 1 of the reason why i literally hate organizations of every kind, everything that is organized ,everything that makes one part of the whatever stick out and be above the rest. Ppl that love that stuff and are into it, just cant be good persons, they just cant.
As for 1. ,well, if a place is sensual as i said b4, its natrual that ppl will be nude, i mean ,if they are that openminded to have sex with other ppl around watching, or if they swing, im sure that being nude is something they dont even think of as a “thing”. So of course ppl will be nude there, but anyhow, if u mix all of those together as u said, i really see no difference.
You know, id like to put side by side, textilism and nudism and say its the same thing jsut one is with clotes and the other isnt.
I think thats a good way of looking at things but … the diff is that no1 said that textilism isnt or cant be senXual.
My recent comment contained some typos and needed minor specifications, as I re-read it. It has, therefore, been placed on the ETC website:
http://medpsych.at/ETC.html – there linked as:
http://medpsych.at/Comment-Nakedwandering-2018-20-28.pdf
Hoping to serve your convenience,
Volkmar
Maby we talk about two different Movements: Naturism and Nudism! Naturism is a style of our life. We can be naturist also when we are dressed. Nudism is only to be nacked in the beaches!
We don’t really like the termination because it’s very location dependent. When we started in naturism, we certainly called ourselves naturists because nudists had a certain undertone. In the USA we suddenly became nudists, because over there naturists are the beach people and nudists are those going to clubs.
In Mexico we were also nudists, just like everyone else, because the term “naturist” has already been used by an eco-friendly movement (there really are “naturist shops” in Mexico). For us this was an eye opener and it shows how little those terms actually mean.
Naturismo is borned in Germany in 1920. Many thighs are changed from the first steps of Naturism, but we are organization and we must respect our filosophy and Lifestyle. The Naturism is not only to walk in the center of the tow or in the restaurant or the beaches. We are working for to promote the Naturist movement but we hare rules, and we must to follow them. Remember also that each Country has her cultur and traditions and the Naturism is necessary for to unified those cultures and un each Country we have difference and sensibility of this Movement!
Thanks for your comment Rosita.
We don’t think that anyone at the conference was questioning the philosophy or values of naturism. We’re all working towards the same goals when it comes to that. But the ways of doing so differ a lot. Several interesting ideas were thrown into the group in Lisbon like implementing a digital membership card/app, a bonus system for those who regularly visit INF affiliated places, whether we can make naturism a human right, etc. We’re not saying that these ideas were perfect, but none of them received constructive criticism. Which is a pity. Sometimes it seemed to us that some people just want to keep things like they were in 1920…
Just like you say, each country has its own traditions and cultures and ways to interpret naturism. During the last decade (or two) several non-European countries joined which have a completely different way of thinking than the ancient German (or Western European) way. So we don’t think that unified rules set by the INF will still work for all. We think that those rules should be defined by the countries themselves, keeping the values of naturism in mind, and that the INF should rather function as a support organisation.
My dear friends, fellow naturists,
now, as I could read some comments, I may say, it is quite clear that certain leaders within your communities presently seem to run on different rails – if I get it right –, by trying to change things by “breaking through” certain conventions, by having developed an own wording on quite a particular understanding of the whole scene, by painting a certain outcome to the followers – which seemingly is being designed as a “global reference” (thus, not to be questioned by others).
My original comment was my own view, based on psychoanalysis, and that’s exactly what I wrote. It needn’t be stated as if it could have been something I failed to consider (in a certain hubris, from which you, again, might be able to insinuate highly questionable qualities, like ignorance and the dictatorship of a “failing clique”, in connection with me and others).
To make that an argument, is misleading and manipulative, both I do not appreciate, nor accept.
I would, therefore, like to repeat my hypothesis, the term of a questionably rough, pre-adolescent political pattern of behaviour comes even closer than before to what is to be found in your tactics.
This, however, is what I must accept for the situation and your anger given, still I do not at all agree to that, as long as I can offer a better solution.
Your folks seem to be wonderful individuals, cute, friendly to each other, humorous, full of energy and plans.
Still – on the other hand – your “political” strategies are not co-operative, rather manipulative and obstructive, even if you dress that all in the camouflage of democracy, juvenile affection, eagerness to achieve a modern naturist society…
I would like to offer constructive, face-to-face discussions, even if the original positions might stay far apart, rather than a constant repetition of one’s own positions, as happening on the base of typing and re-typing.
Basis to that, however, would be a common readiness to accept each other’s diverse momentary positions, and the open-mindedness of adult, responsible actors, to go through a process without any pre-defined outcome other than the benevolent, co-operative, highly responsible developing the project of Naturism, for the narrow time that is granted to us.
This might take time and resources, but I do not see any other constructive pathway – taking for granted a common goal: the preservation, protection and fruitful development of Naturism, in an integrative, rather than exclusive, concept.
Looking forward to reading your proposals,
Volkmar
Dear Volkmar,
There is no anger or political ambition from our side. What we notice is that there is an ever growing range of people who identify themselves with the values of naturism but don’t fit completely within the frame which INF currently stands for. We believe that there should be an organisation which covers the requirements for these “others” as well. The INF is in pole position to become such an organisation, but it needs to be willing to do so.
In the USA there are currently two major federations who cover the scope of naturists/nudists/… One one hand there’s TNS (The Naturist Society) and on the other hand AANR (American Association for Nude Recreation).
Interestingly, the philosophy of TNS leans more towards the one of INF, but in the USA they are considered the “beach people” while AANR (the nudists) are those who are organised in clubs. So what’s in a name?
We’re not big fans of such a division because we’ve seen in the USA that it leads to a competitiveness which is not only unnecessary but also not conform with the naturist philosophy.
One of the major concerns the INF currently has (or should have) is the declining number of members. The younger generations are used to have options in all layers of life and they expect those in naturism too. Many federations have spent a lot of effort in figuring out how to attract young people to naturism “as it is”. With little success. We believe that it’s time to think about how to make naturism attractive again for young people. But then certain changes will be needed.
We could ask ourselves the question why wellness centres generally attract quite a lot of young people why clubs who also have a spa, sauna and pool do not.
Why do commercial naturist centres in France attract more young people than the clubs?
Why do privately organised naked yoga sessions attract more young people than those organised by federations?
And so on.
But to get back to the INF congress, we do have a proposal for the one in 2020. Why not include a time frame in which negativity is forbidden? Let’s say from 2pm-5pm on the second day people get the option to throw ideas in the group and the others are only allowed to give constructive answers. No thinking about why the idea will not work, only thinking about how it could be implemented or improved. That could be a very interesting workshop…
Hi Nick & Lins,
Thx. for the constructive proposal of a “non-negative period”, I’d say, our consensual idea could as well be, to have the whole congress inspired by this idea. I’ll take that for granted.
Have 🙂 fun!
Vo. (October 31st, 2018)
P.s.: Please forgive my not consequently following these threads, it’s not negligence, but workload. In case you like to communicate, kindly use this address: [email protected]
In many ways this discussion is unnecessary.
Today you can be a naturist without ever getting in contact with the INF or an INF-affiliated club. We, a family of four, have practiced naturism for many years without the INF. All those family naturist swims we went to weren’t organised by the INF. That running event in Germany we tried? Not by the INF. The vacations? Most camping resorts we went to across Europe weren’t INF-affiliates, and they had a great deal to offer to families like us. (Those who were INF-affiliates didn’t care about any missing INF-membership from our part.) The national organisation we are members of? Tried to join the INF for a decade, with no avail. It’s Denmarks biggest naturist organisation, by the way.
So who organises all this? Those are all the people on the ground. The resort owners, who carry the financial risks of owning a niche business and their employees, the volunteers working for free at your local organisations, the people getting the ideas and wanting to carry them through with little help. People like the owners of this blog for example. Those are the important people. Naturism is, and always have been, carried out by individuals on ground level getting good ideas, and cooperating with others. From the “bottom up” (no pun intended 🙂 ), and not from the top down. This is going to be the future.
Surely the INF will keep on existing for a while. Partly because, if you join an INF-affiliated club you will get the INF-membership involuntarily (Here in Denmark anyways), so there is a lot of inertia, but we actually have do have a freedom of choice, as the INF doesn’t own “naturism”. Actually naturism existed in different forms for half a century prior to the organisations founding. For my familiy and for a great number of naturists the INF hasn’t been a factor in our way to naturism. Not because we avoided it, or had a dislike, but because the INF simply isn’t present or active on any visible level.
And the question pop ups: Why should your energy be wasted of trying to help a marginal organisation that basically doesn’t want any help or input, when there is so much work to be done elsewhere?
Hi Lasse,
You’ve made so many good arguments that we’re not going to repeat them all just to agree with them. So let’s skip to your final question, one that we’ve been asked several times during the last weeks: “Why did we bother going to the INF conference and why do we keep arguing about it?”
Well, as strange as it may sound, because we believe in the INF. Or let’s rephrase that, we believe in what the INF could be.
During our journeys we’ve met so many people with good intentions and good ideas who struggled to get them off the ground. Just like you said, organising something for naturists often requires a financial risk or at least a lot of personal effort and time. We believe that these are the people who could gain a lot from the INF. Or A INF.
With their knowledge, experience and funds they could be the perfect support organisation. We’ve been to places that struggle with legal issues, with marketing, with social media,… That’s who the INF should be helping. The INF should be a label to be proud of, like an eco-label. But today these seem far away dreams…
Lasse thats a pretty good point, u see, thats kinda the same way i think about the laws and rules in general hah, cause really, they dont own us ,yet we must obey them rather we like it or not,and thats not good at all, cause those that dont like it/something, are forced to like that something, thats democracy they say, but isnt democracy then nothing else but bullying? Isnt it deviding ppl/things/intrests/preferences/personal choices..?
Hello Nick and Lins, my name is Dale and I live in Jamaica where I have made nudity my lifestyle choice.
I was disappointed when I was reading your blog post about your experiences at the INF conference where world leaders on naturism congregate; disappointed because from your post it seems there is not much insight from the governing body on the way forward on naturism. What do you think about the idea of you guys hosting your own annual Naturism in the 21st Century conference? You would invite 50 or so naturist leaders and social influencers and discuss issues relevant to moving Naturism forward. I have here a few suggestions for persons that I think could make a meaningful contribution to that conference
Niecey Peace @nieceypeace_
Jordan Hunter @jordanthehrugivore
Willow Mereville @nakedinmotion
Simon @simonmrnudey
Anna Maria Woodings @asta_woodings
Felicity Jones @felicitysblog
Serenity Hart @helloserenityhart
Ton Dou @musicaunaturel
Holly @_free_to_be_me_
Joy Nelson @tantrachick
Kirian @ladygodivaldn. Thank you for the work you are doing. Dale Harrison @dharrisanthony [email protected]
Hi Dale, that’s very interesting thinking and we also like the idea “if you think you can do better, than do better”. Currently we’re spending all our time and our means in our own projects, it’s a bit selfish but we’re sure that they can change the face of naturism in their own way. But who knows we’ll ever host our own congress?
Dear firends, I have missed contact for a while, sorry for that. May I join in again?
Prior to any comment on interesting statements, I would like you to know some facts:
My resignation was declared, following a motion announced for the CC meeting after Easter in Spain, clearly aiming the gradual disassembly of my “office for ethics” issues, presumably of the “ethics council” and myself in particular, as I had “fallen out of the President’s grace” – whatever that could have meant prior to the conflict.
A few weeks after my resignation, a solicitor wrote letters demanding:
1st,
to declare my statement on an “illegally opened” letter “false” and an “unlawful accusation”, and publish that on my Expert Website for a month’s time – if not, I would be sentenced for a criminal act.
2nd,
to stop using the Organization’s name, its abbreviations and symbols, delete all links and comments, and terminate mentioning my decades of voluntary work for naturism (partly within the organization, as a CC member in particular).
If I refused or failed to accomplish that within a week’s time, I would be taken to civil court for the violation of the organization’s rights on its own name.
The President, however, has not yet removed my name, address and function from the Statutes, as far as I have seen – which adds rather a curious aspect to the “crime scene”…
Costs I had to pay: EUR 840,- followed by the solicitor’s ivoice EUR 2.772,96 so far.
Taking in consideration that in January I had offered a mediation between the president and myself twice, these measures appear not at all benevolent or matching the naturist concept of living together in a supportive and fruitful manner.
I am confident, the 2020 congress will succed (this time, with clearly undoubtable numbers of votes) in re-arrenging the Central Committe of the mentioned organization. For the future, it would be helpful to cancel the mentioned sanctions imposed on me, as I would like to be free in supporting naturism and all serious naturist organizations in the future.
Even if you plan to host “an own congress”: naturist principles will have to be met.
If interested, read my articles – most of them cost-free,
naturist content listed under “N”:
http://medpsych.at/bibliografie-ell.pdf
some have been translated, some still pending…
The paper on naturist ethics will be translated, for members who speak German, a free download is available here:
http://medpsych.at/Artikel-Naturistische-Ethik-gratis.pdf
Another article on “Paradise lost and regained”, is available in a bilingual version:
http://medpsych.at/Artikel-Ovid-Paradise-ges-gratis.pdf
May I ask you a favour:
In case you find any symbol or name of this organization accidentally left in my articles or websites, kindly tell me, I do not want to fight that lady and her solicitor, on my own expenses. Thanks a lot!
Have a good time,
Volkmar